Craft Spirits Magazine’s Kristiane Weeks‑Rogers (CSM) recently sat down with Echo Spirits founder Joe Bidinger to talk about Elusive, the distillery’s botanical liqueur that began as a behind‑the‑bar experiment and evolved into one of the most talked‑about new American herbal spirits.
In a conversation that ranged from creative problem‑solving to scaling challenges and the future of American liqueurs, Bidinger shared how a bartender’s determination to make a Last Word—during a time when green chartreuse was nearly impossible to find—sparked a multi‑year project that now has bartenders across the country asking for Echo Spirits by name.
CSM: Echo Spirits first built its reputation on whiskey and rum. How did that early production background shape the path toward Elusive?
Bidinger: We started out in rum, though we never set out to be “the rum guys.” We wanted a wide range of spirits. We launched six months before the pandemic, so we didn’t have much under our belts. We considered putting out a spiced rum quickly, but we didn’t want to pigeonhole ourselves. Then we started winning rum awards and thought, okay, maybe we’re pretty good at this.
CSM: So how did Elusive enter the picture?
Bidinger: Full credit goes to our bar staff, especially Derek Reno, our bar manager and beverage director. He’s been with us since January 2020. Elusive was truly his from scratch. He wanted to make a Last Word but couldn’t get green chartreuse, so he started creating something that would work behind the bar. He was making it sous‑vide, ten bottles at a time. It took about 18 months before he felt comfortable putting it on the menu.
CSM: Eighteen months?
Bidinger: Yeah. We’d come in in the morning and find him still there. He gets creatively fixed on things and just runs with them. It was never intended to be shared outside the bar. He just wanted to make a Last Word. But the reaction from cocktail aficionados was so positive that one day we asked him, “Do you want to put this in a bottle?” He was surprised. That wasn’t the intention. It just evolved.
CSM: Was this a direct response to the chartreuse shortage?
Bidinger: Not directly. Inspired by it, sure. But it wasn’t, “There’s a market opportunity.” It was a creative decision first. Later we realized there was a business opportunity.
CSM: Chartreuse has gotten expensive.
Bidinger: We’re in Ohio, a control state. It used to be a $30–$40 bottle. Now, when you can get it, it’s around $80. In some places with secondary pricing, it’s $200. So yeah, Elusive wasn’t created because of that, but it certainly worked out.
CSM: When you talk about Elusive, you mention its versatility. It’s not a clone.
Bidinger: Right. It’s not a green chartreuse clone. It became its own thing. Ingredient‑wise, it’s probably closer to yellow chartreuse. But it works, both as a stand‑in and as its own cocktail ingredient.
CSM: Let’s talk botanicals. Was there a balance of inspiration and regionality?
Bidinger: Some practicality, definitely. Chartreuse supposedly uses 80‑plus ingredients. We whittled ours down to around 25 through trial, error, and functionality. You can split hairs forever, but that wasn’t the point. We wanted something original.
CSM: Derek originally used fresh herbs, right?
Bidinger: Almost entirely. That became a sticking point when scaling. Fresh mint was a big one. The original belief was that fresh mint was critical. But scaling meant we’d need three pounds of fresh mint per batch, picked and macerated by hand. Not practical. So we did blind tests: fresh vs. dried. Nobody could tell the difference. That was huge.
CSM: And you forage some ingredients locally?
Bidinger: Yes. The pine in Elusive is literally from pine trees around Columbus. Natural ingredients vary year to year, so even today, some batches require adjustments to taste. You check color, flavor, nose, every time.
CSM: Scaling a sous‑vide recipe sounds… complicated.
Bidinger: Our distillery is under 1,000 square feet. We were trying to figure out how to sous‑vide hundreds of gallons. At one point we wondered if we could use the mash tun as a giant sous‑vide. It got crazy. Eventually, through test batches and blind tastings, we found ingredient swaps and a straight‑infusion method that matched the original. That took another 18 months. Elusive is a multi‑year bottle.
CSM: You mentioned proof point being a major factor.
Bidinger: Originally Derek was infusing store‑bought vodka under the bar license, so the proof varied. Once we moved production to the distillery, we had access to higher proof points. We could spike the proof without diluting flavor. Green chartreuse is 110 proof; Elusive is 90. That’s where it tasted best. Everything tastes different at 80, 90, 100. You’re guiding the consumer experience.
CSM: Does it stand up in a Last Word?
Bidinger: Absolutely. One bartender did a five‑cocktail comparison—Elusive vs. green chartreuse. Elusive won four. In a couple, chartreuse’s higher proof mattered, so some bars spike the proof with other ingredients. But Elusive works in most applications.
CSM: Has Elusive opened doors for your other spirits?
Bidinger: Definitely. Some bars weren’t interested in our other spirits before, but they’re now asking for Elusive, and coming back to reconsider our rum and whiskey. Sometimes they tried batch one years ago; now we’re on batch 50‑something. Things evolve. And rum is having a moment. People want local ingredients. It’s a good time for Elusive.
CSM: How do you see American producers redefining herbal liqueurs? Are we stuck in European traditions?
Bidinger: For now, yes—until it becomes more mainstream. There’s room to explore, but the easiest route is starting with something familiar and modifying from there. You have to ease the collective palate. Otherwise you make something wonderful that appeals to too few people. It doesn’t sell, and people think it’s a failure.